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SUBJECT:	ZTFS - TSOTF Back to Subjects
eric Nov 20 2012 at 7:15 AM	Music is not a mere product - commodity to be consumed like fast food, easy and disposable. Music requires attention, heart, effort and rewards us with deep revelations, maybe occasional profound experiences if we are lucky. But not without effort. And like food, of which music is a type, not everything tastes great to everyone. And tastes change as we grow and learn. PS - These records MUST be played LOUD.
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MilesMethenyfan44 Nov 29 2012 at 8:30 PM	Honestly though when I’m listening to Avant Garde styles of jazz what I’m really lisenting for is how invested in the performance are the players. For example Coltrane always puts 100percent of his soul into every solo he does, as does Cecil and Ornette. It might sound chaotic but if you listen it really sounds like the people playing it are giving every ounce of what they have for the performance. Obviously it also has to do with the creativity of the ideas and the interaction but first I look for the emotion and TSOF and ZTFS actually have alot of all these elements. I could completely understand why someone might not like it however.
MilesMethenyfan44 Nov 29 2012 at 8:20 PM	I always liked The Sign of Four alot more than ZTFS. I felt like there was a little more going on in that one.I think Pat should do a duo album with either Han bennink or Cecil Taylor in this vein that would be cool!
bluepno Nov 27 2012 at 9:22 AM	Maybe a clue...The title to one tale of the great Sherlock Holmes by Sir Arthur Conan Doyle...The Sign of Four...coincidence? Sir Arthur Conan Doyle described how he was commissioned to write the story over a dinner with Joseph M. Stoddart, managing editor of Lippincott’s Monthly Magazine, at the Langham Hotel in London on 30 August 1889. Stoddart wanted to produce an English version of Lippincott’s with a British editor and British contributors. The dinner was also attended by Oscar Wilde, who eventually contributed The Picture of Dorian Gray to the July 1890 issue. Doyle discussed what he called this "golden evening" in his 1924 autobiography Memories and Adventures.(wikipedia)
franksexton Nov 26 2012 at 12:19 PM	akakak, I listen to those in the same way. Great minds think alike.
rbslscpa Nov 26 2012 at 2:16 AM	To each his own. For me it is kind of like the emperor has no clothes, but maybe i just don’t get it. I have been a fan of Pat since 1979 and I own EVERY cd. Even ZTFS and TSOF. Cheers
bluepno Nov 25 2012 at 5:33 PM	Sign of Four....3 live discs...quite an experiment...great companions...many have argued that it is not real so I have them wait for the live applause.A beautiful mess...
eric Nov 25 2012 at 4:11 PM	TSOTF = The Sign of the Four, a recording of improvisational music Pat made with Paul Wertico & Greg Bendian on drums and Derek Bailey on guitar. Some like to think of this as a continuation of musical adventures that you can trace from Song X with Ornette Coleman (a hero of music) and ZTFS. I might agree for the sake of a starting point of discussion since all three of these records require openness and desire to stretch your ears in a different way than some of Pat’s other recordings might. But the idea that listening is active and involves a joyful effort is a great secret that musicians know and listeners can acquire. I half joke about the great secret but it does seem hidden in plain view at times. TSOTF could be played while you are involved in other activity. I used to make art listening to Song X and ZTFS. But repeated close listens and learning about the artists and the genre of improvisational music will deepen your experience. In the end you may or may not be drawn to these kinds of musics, but after listening to them you will know more about Pat’s explorations and you may even start to hear tiny sparks of these flavors in lots of his other records. All his records are - as he has alluded to - all like one big piece of music.
akakak Nov 23 2012 at 10:26 AM	Hi Franksexton - Yes I have listened to this. Its really great. I set up a playlist on my IPOD that has the coltrane version followed by the Nels Cline/Gregg Bendian version of each piece. I find the two versions compliment each other as each are different but capture the same feeling and spirit. Put together, the two versions contain about 2 hours of music. I think this works because the use of guitar on one version versus tenor sax provides a different sonic landscape, but also compliments of the sax. The intensity is there throughout.
mightymouse Nov 21 2012 at 3:32 PM	i remember the first time i heard the album rejoicing in high school and i thought they were speaking in tongues beautiful music
franksexton Nov 21 2012 at 8:48 AM	Hi akakak, Have you listened to Interstellar Space Revisited ?
franksexton Nov 21 2012 at 8:09 AM	eric, TSOTF is that "The Sign of Four" ?
akakak Nov 21 2012 at 7:42 AM	Eric - this is a good post. I have been a serious listener of music my entire life. I had a similar experience with a Coltrane record I bought back in the 70’s. At that time (I may have been 16 or 17)I was really getting into the art rock stuff and the jazz rock thing that was booming at that time and found I was moving towards jazz quickly. I found a record (Coltrane’s Interstellar space) and bought it. I played it and immediately didn’t like it. I actually never played it again for a while. Then heard some other Coltrane music and liked that. After continuing exploring many different things for a while, I later went back to Interstellar Space and it clicked immediately. Something was different in the way I heard this music. This always lead me to the feeling that listening itself is a skill and art. Also, I think when one hears specific song forms or sounds over long periods (for example listening to pop music on top 40 radio), your brain to a point can become conditioned to this. So when exposed to something that is sharply different in terms of sound and form, the reaction may be a negative one. I could be wrong about this, but this idea is what I have sensed from my own listening experiences over the years. A great example happened a long time ago when Stravinski first unleashed "The Rite of Spring" in Paris in 1913. The result was a riot where people were outraged and harsh criticism from critics. This of coarse now is one of his most famous and respected compositions. I love ZTFS as much as Still Life and as much as Question and Answer. ZTFS caused an interesting reaction among Metheny fans. Because it is so dense, the only way to listen to ZTFS is total concentration with a good pair of headsets to capture all the sounds that are going on-so you can hear everything at once and comprehend it (and there is really great guitar work hear). I approach listening in this way now for everything. I also think everyone perceives music differently. So the issue of personal taste must play into this.
eric Nov 20 2012 at 1:07 PM	Thought I might add that the reason for this ’out of the blue’ post about these recordings is that I came upon some recent AG posts about them and Orchestrion. Certainly. Pat’s work doesn’t need me to defend it. It is Music in the broadest sense that I want to speak for, and while American popular culture doesn’t communicate this much anymore, this does require effort; to listen, be open to challenging expressions, accept that something may not touch your heart but it may be the greatest thing ever to the person next to you... All this and more. I’d like to see people try avoiding what I call the Beavis response. That is "I don’t get it. This is uncomfortable. I will make disparaging remarks about it because then I feel better about my not getting it." This need to demean what is not understood, where did it originate? I see so called music critics do this as well as plain folks who are insecure. As a kid, the more mature listeners here were fortunate to have radio personalities who would choose what they liked to play during their programs. They’d talk about the music, compare it to things that came before or were similar in some way. I remember radio programs that included music, art reviews, recipes, poetry and DJs reading the liner notes from the record sleeves. They’d play entire new recordings, with no commercial interruptions and with great mind opening commentary afterwards. I am a big fan of much of what the internet offers us. But I do find in depth discussion of music mostly missing. So... best wishes to anyone reading this. And PS- For a little perspective - I bought Ornette Coleman’s "Free Jazz" record with money I earned mowing lawns and washing cars. I was 10 years old. I liked Beatles, Beach Boys and jazz my parents liked, like Louis Armstrong and Stan Kenton. I bought it because the cover art was a reproduction of a Jackson Pollack painting. I thought Jackson Pollack was the coolest guy ever. Making a living making paintings like that. Oh man. What could be better? I read the back cover liner notes but although I was intrigued by them I can’t say I was prepared for what I’d hear when i put the needle in the groove ! I thought "what have I just spent my money on?". I kept returning to that record over many years and today - when the mood is right - it still rocks my world! So forget what people tell you to think about music and listen for yourself. And turn it up!
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