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SUBJECT:	Personal thoughts triggered by the New Chautauqua. Back to Subjects
mario toni Dec 21 2011 at 4:00 AM	There is something I’ve been thinking of sharing with you, guys. A few days ago I drove through the mountains and listened to N.C. I was alone and had the time to think and feel with no interruptions (wife ;)) I realized (not the first time, of course) that when N.C. played on my car stereo I was constantly aware of how genius it is and how well is connected with the nature & landscapes around me. I listened to the whole album completely focused on it and with very severe and often goosebumps on my skin. It happens also on other albums from PM/G 70-80 era. After it finished and I started to hike, I compared the latest Pat’s album (What’s it All About) to N.C. and other old stuff from PM/G and realized that when I listen to the last album or One Quiet Night, for instance, it never holds my attention so strong as (in this case) N.C. When I play What’s it All About album my focus drifts away very often and I even forget that it plays. It becomes some kind of a background music. The same thing is with One Quiet Night or even Orchestrion (a bit less). For me, there is something in the air in those old recordings, some kind of free spirit of melody and emotion that interacts with the listener in the most profound basis. However, some of the new stuff is really great (especially considering the state of music today), but it does not correspond with my soul and harmony values at the same, intimate, etheric way. It is great, but that’s it! It is not Something has changed in the way Pat sees and hears the melody and improvisations. In my case, it looks like it has gone a bit too much on the technical side. You know, I basically know all of the improvisation parts (Pat’s - I am not talking about Lyle) from the albums like PMG, Offramp, American Garage or Still Life... In these days I can hardly remember a few part from his newer recordings like Orchestrion or Day Trip. So, I was wondering what are your thoughts about that? Are there some of you guys here with the same "problems"? I am not writing this to start some discussion about is the new Pat’s music better or worse than the old one, but to hear your thoughts. Cheers! ;)
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thehague Feb 14 2012 at 3:27 PM	Luckily foper doesn’t miss us. Hi Barley!
Pete_Vancouver Feb 02 2012 at 3:56 PM	A pint of Top Totty if you please , and have one yourself old fellah. ( ha ! Just imagining trying to explain the concept of Totty to some red-state garagistas of recent years). New Chautauqua? A summer spent circumnavigating Iceland in a Ford Fiesta whist hoiking stream sampling gear across the sandur . Good days.
bluepno Feb 02 2012 at 10:34 AM	Maybe the adults will unlock the door...if the kids will play nice.
-m Jan 29 2012 at 2:46 PM	"i miss foper" Me too.
barley Jan 25 2012 at 12:38 PM	Bar is OPEN! Drinks are on the house! Nothing’s changed much around here, could do with a lick of paint. Basement still shut I see. Shame. Ahem, as to the thread....New Chautauqua will always remind me of driving thru Spain. Cheers!
Dazedcat Jan 24 2012 at 8:47 PM	Barley!!!
john Jan 24 2012 at 4:29 PM	Hey Barley. Does this mean the bar is now open?
METHenyaddicted Jan 24 2012 at 3:25 PM	Barley? I was wondering where you went to.
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 24 2012 at 1:58 PM	i miss foper, foper come back! foper!
jsjj21 Jan 24 2012 at 9:36 AM	Alas, yon Barley! What are we pouring tonight?
-m Jan 24 2012 at 7:03 AM	barley!
barley Jan 23 2012 at 2:46 PM	Did somebody say "Basement"? Hi guys.
bluepno Jan 22 2012 at 8:11 AM	As we reach 100 entries to this thread...just a thought...perhaps there is an element of the Higgs-Boson particle in the vibrations of the strings of the guitar Pat was using at that time.This could be the ultimate battle of science vs.soul that some are seeking.
Oystein Jan 21 2012 at 4:54 PM	Oooooh yeah, Tromsø! The tune... The city. Been living in Tromsø for 50 years without being able to express even close to what Pat says in this tune, after being here for just a few days visit. Guess we made an impression on the man!
john Jan 21 2012 at 6:35 AM	Looks like the spirit of The Basement is alive and well and thriving in this thread. Now that’s nostalgia. Cheers John.
thehague Jan 21 2012 at 4:29 AM	Finally a word of wisdom. From a grown man.
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 20 2012 at 5:53 PM	How about Trømso from Day Trip? Now, how's that for some landscaping?
franksexton Jan 18 2012 at 11:08 AM	not to sound trite - buts its all good.
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 17 2012 at 1:09 PM	"Let’s not discuss musical values since there’s no obviously point in that." A quote from the demigod. Now, tell me, What the eff is a musical value? does it have any thing to do with the soulful fish filet at mcdonalds?
mario toni Jan 17 2012 at 10:00 AM	Case closed!
HAMBONE Jan 17 2012 at 8:45 AM	Before this thread gets shut down because of verbal bloodshed, let me add my 2 cents. I too enjoy the older music more than the newer. And that’s not to say the newer is in any worse, it’s just a matter of personal taste.That being said, I still enjoy the new music, especially Orchestrion and the trio works.And I would really like to see another PMG effort soon too.Peace!
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 17 2012 at 8:40 AM	We really dig all his stuff from anytime. Period. We just don’t need it to correspond to anything with a bunch of adjectives. Now explain to me the soul and harmony values that we should be familiar with that only you and the old music interact on a profound basis? Now that is profound!
mario toni Jan 17 2012 at 2:14 AM	You really star to get on my nerves. What part of my statement is not understandable by your thick brain?! I didn’t dismiss a huge part of Pat’s music like your stupid head did. I said it was a good music, really good, but to me it has lost something which only you, lamebrain, don’t understand. And I didn’t start this thread to have to discuss with people of less inteligence, people like you, who see the world as black and white (and as content). If you want to quote me in the future posts, please first ask my autograph!
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 16 2012 at 8:25 PM	"However, some of the new stuff is really great (especially considering the state of music today), but it does not correspond with my soul and harmony values at the same, intimate, etheric way." Excuse me, but if one reads this it clearly makes no sense. It's called "bullshitting", however pleasantly you want to make it.
-m Jan 16 2012 at 2:02 PM	Just to add to the erudite analysis of my friend Mr. Cat. Just one word: EPIC. ;)
Dazedcat Jan 15 2012 at 10:23 PM	Well I’m currently on that famouse website that streams videos? I’m listening to the original PMG playing "All The Things You Are" from 1980. Kids, you couldn’t be more wrong on just about every level possible. FAIL.
bluepno Jan 15 2012 at 2:34 PM	Just think..Metheny without the Missouri Compromise...Bright Size Life!
hman01 Jan 15 2012 at 12:21 PM	I only listen to San Lorenzo and eat Big Macs.Where’s my senior discount,or am I just a discounted senior? Oh well,time for a nap.
bluepno Jan 15 2012 at 9:10 AM	It’s the journey that creates the magic...one event doesn’t occur in isolation.Whatever artist you listen to there is a sum value that can be added to...sometimes subtracted. I find it reassuring that there is a youth vs. elder battle occurring.I find the music timeless and can only hear age in the production values and engineering of the discs. The reckless extremes of the youth make me reminisce of the days when I had all the answers.
Dazedcat Jan 14 2012 at 8:18 PM	NewSchool: After you laid the gauntlet down by dismissing early Metheny music completely, you didn’t serve your argument very well by listing a half dozen "exceptions" to what you said originally. Just sayin’.......
METHenyaddicted Jan 14 2012 at 4:52 PM	To me, having listened to most of the compositions relatively currently, there are great parts and not-so-good parts in every piece from every cd, the balance shifting to one side or not. But those ’great’ parts (to my ears)? They have stayed that way. I see it as a flowin continuum with brillance peeping through from the first album to the present. Maybe that is the unpredictable nature of a music form that embraces improv. I am often happily impressed with some early concert when I see it for the first time, but having said that, I only hope to hear new compostions, taking risks. I guess it’s up to Pat to decide what limits he wants to continue pushing towards.
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 14 2012 at 12:02 PM	The only thing evocated was your own indulgent thinking. I remember working on New Chautauqua too in the 80s, so if you want to live in the past, go ahead.
mugsy Jan 14 2012 at 11:31 AM	Interesting that the person who started this thread, now says it is pointless. We are talking about taste - a very subjective and (apparently) controversial subject on this site. I for one, believe that Pat has evolved in many ways over the years. I really try not to judge good, better and best, but look at his current work as different from his earlier work. For me, the man is a musical genius and his work just gets more and more diverse as time goes on. I am really looking forward to his bringing the PMG back together in whatever form it takes.
chetweir Jan 14 2012 at 9:26 AM	Hey new school....just wondering if you consider Jeff Ballard a "strong" drummer?
bucky1960 Jan 14 2012 at 7:46 AM	maybe it is time to put this issue to bed. in my humble opinion, not a professional critic, it boils down to personal taste. some people like Coke some Pepsi. some like their coffee black some like it with milk and sugar. it also boils down, specifically to Pat’s music, where you jumped on the train. if you began listening to his music when he was young you have seen a musician mature and change over time. you may not like all the changes but that’s the great thing about music. if you jumped on later in his career and have not gone back in the music to see where he has been you may not understand the journey or you may be missing some great music. before this gets ugly, let’s bottle it, cap it, and put it in the cellar. let’s agree to disagree. the one thing for sure, i believe, is Pat’s music will most likely be music that will stand the test of time and be appreciated by people for years to come if they are exposed to it just like Dizzy, Miles, Ella, The Duke, Zappa, The Eagles, etc., and of course Elvis. Happy Trails!
mario toni Jan 14 2012 at 5:02 AM	I think that this thread is pointless From this stage because of assholes like that guy that knows 2 little. I am a photographer and older recordings evocate mostly landscapes images while newer (from 2000) doesn’t evocate anything (except TWU). So much for nostalgia since last time I checked landscapes were still around. Let’s not discuss musical values since there’s no obviously point in that.
NewSchoolID4 Jan 13 2012 at 10:40 PM	I had a great Christmas break with my Dad and we spent a good part of the time relistening to lots of music including things related to this thread. My initial statement is the same after all of this, anyone who can listen to early Pat and say with a straight face that there is some magic there that has changed or vanished is just crazy. This is pure nostalgia, nothing more. His newer work, particularly away from the PMG will be the records that he is remembered by, EXCEPT for the older people who grew up with those first records. Again, the exception to this is Bright Size Life, although I would also add 80/81 as a record that will be listed among his greatest accomplishments. Also, Song X. But on his own, for the melodic more thickly orchestrated music, props also to Secret Story. The "synthy" washes that characterize so much of the PMG just ruin it for me, and the lack of a strong drummer pre-Sanchez and the general blandness of some of the other players in the PMG just makes me check out while listening to them in ways that the Mehldau, McBride, etc records keep me engaged. Oh, and I almost forgot. Question and Answer! No nostalgia needed to put that in the top tier. My dad is an old guy, but even he came around to my way of thinking after we listened a lot. But he admits that the music reminded him of an old girlfriend he had at that time and he was nostalgic of it because of that. At least he is honest!
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 13 2012 at 12:57 PM	My opinions about what someone says shouldn’t get flack. Mario Toni is full of it. Simple as that. He should be a critic for Downbeat!
bucky1960 Jan 13 2012 at 9:26 AM	the man who knew too little- shit or get off the pot!! one either likes something or dislikes something regardless of content. content is relative. remember the king of Austria told Mozart about one of his works, "Too many notes." too much content, or too much of what one may consider a good thing, can mess up an otherwise good thing. still it boils down to personal taste. suck it up and accept that FACT.
thehague Jan 12 2012 at 3:50 AM	No shit, Man (or little boy I should say), so that was communicating what you were doing? You lost me.
bluepno Jan 11 2012 at 11:01 AM	I only listen to Beethoven’s 30, 31 and 32 Piano Sonatas...his composition style was much better than the first 29...I only listen to Bach’s Art of the Fugue..it makes the 999 earlier pieces sound like ...wait a minute. I really enjoy most of both composers works.
hman01 Jan 11 2012 at 10:47 AM	themanwhoknewtoolittle-I love McDonalds.I take exception to your "same thing over and over" remark.It’s not true.They only had McRibs for a limited time,then they took them away.
Dazedcat Jan 11 2012 at 10:00 AM	Ah youth, there’s nothing like it.
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 10 2012 at 4:29 PM	i know nothing, music for me is not a matter of like or dislike, its about conent, so if you want the same thing over and over go to mcdonalds, language is supposedly for communication not bs!
mario toni Jan 10 2012 at 3:23 PM	That’s right, thehague! I think those younger generations have some sort of attitude problem. Maybe the mother’s milk isn’t what it used to be. Or maybe they compensate some thingies by insulting people here. It is good we don’t know each other since they wouldn’t be so bold face to face.
thehague Jan 10 2012 at 10:00 AM	Man, indeed you know too little (understating here). People are just expressing what they like and what they like less. PM is an incredible musician in every stage of his musical career. Some people just like his earlier music more. That’s all. Can’t you get that through your obviously thick skull or what?
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 07 2012 at 11:13 AM	from m t "In these days I can hardly remember a few part from his newer recordings like Orchestrion or Day Trip." Now how stupid is that? I went through Day Trip tunes like Snova, Dreaming Trees, Calvin Keys and the rest, man, you talking out of your aZZ! Literally, Day Trip is some happening cheet and also Orchestrion, another masterpiece.
BobSmith Jan 07 2012 at 9:30 AM	mario toni--Hey someone has mentioned my favorite song from BSL - Omaha Celebration. I’ve always wondered why it was never incorporated into the trio settings as it is just a beautiful piece with something for everyone in the band. Or maybe it has been, but just one-off live. Has anyone ever heard him play it since the 70’s? I think it contains remarkable compositional complexity and emotional depth, especially considering he was just a kid when he composed it. It was one of the first things I learned on bass and Jaco was a great teacher and ear opener I might add. I mean, I never really mastered it (trying following some of the almost telepathic interplay between Pat and Jaco in the sort of "jam" interlude in the middle of the song while Pat solos) but it really opened up my head to the bass.
mario toni Jan 07 2012 at 3:05 AM	mario tiny...really ingenious... i never said that TWU was too technical. actually, it is the best thing Pat has done in the last 15 years! it is a masterpiece. considering "omaha celebration", i don’t understand your point. it is a great tune from a great recording from a great era!
jwmusic Jan 06 2012 at 8:33 PM	I really identify with the opinion and observations of Marco Toni (this thread’s originator). I think Pat is the greatest musician I’ve ever known about. As listening to music has been my life’s love, I take that statement very seriously. "New Chautauqua" is one of the many great Metheny records. Released in 1979, it is part of the richest section of Pat’s dicography, his ECM catalog. I agree with the contrast of "New Chautauqua" to "One Quiet Night/What’s It All About". The latter records simply aren’t as musical and don’t hold my attention like "New Chautauqua" does. Nevertheless, both "one Quiet Night" and "What’s It All About" are stand-alone excellent, particularly so considering the quality of records today! I continue to eagerly await anything Pat releases.
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 06 2012 at 1:29 PM	if you listen old bootlegs the way up was played or parts of it in a different form with the pmg so it being too technical is bs
themanwhoknewtoolittle Jan 06 2012 at 1:28 PM	maro tiny is omaha celebration too technical? for you?
tiny_tim Jan 04 2012 at 5:13 AM	Dazecat said, "Phase Dance still sends me to a special place over thirty plus years later." Moi aussi!!!
Nissen67 Jan 03 2012 at 10:20 PM	MT, I don’t know how to break this to you but if you were 10 at the time of Offramp that officially makes you a geezer and more than capable of the nostalgia that you appear to be suffering from. And as a hearty proponent of all things Pat from throughout his history, old and new, I agree with what Oystein said, a good bit of this is about time spent. Orchestrion is a good example of this, after hearing it a dozen times, it is locked to me the same way Offramp is, but at this point in life, finding time for those dozens of listens is more challenging but more worth it too as Pat has grown so massively over the years, there is just way more substance in the second O than the first one, not to mention the wild almost insane creativity involved in just conceiving the thing let alone writing what could be his best music ever with it. That double punch just can’t be found with any other artist of our time. And you can’t remember it? To me, it is seared into me to the grave, as so many other PM compositions have been over the years. But Metheny can’t win with some people, he is damned if he changes and damned if he sticks with the old timers. I would say that he is playing it all out quite well however all things considered, far better than anyone else of his generation certainly. But I sense his lean towards the new and uncharted wins over his allegiance to what anyone else thinks about anything, another reason for my admiration.
Dazedcat Jan 03 2012 at 4:52 PM	No doubt there’s that early connection to Metheny’s music that almost gets sacred as the decades roll by. His playing today is light years ahead of what he did in 1977 but that doesn’t make his early music any less valid. I’m an old fart and I revel in the fact that I am. Phase Dance still sends me to a special place over thirty plus years later. I make no apologies for that little factoid either.
Oystein Jan 03 2012 at 3:35 PM	...and by the way; I feel the spirit of the old Garage (and Basement) knocking on the door with posts like the ones from "preschool" and "themanwhoknowsnothing" here... Keep it up! :o)
Oystein Jan 03 2012 at 3:25 PM	Maybe the old timers in here (like myself) just had more time on their hands 30 years ago, and spent it mainly listening to Pat...? Maybe that`s why I support Mario Toni on this issue, because I had so much time to really enjoy the music. Learning every chord and solo by heart like I did back then is just not possible for me today. Too many other "time-thieves" on my hand now, like kids, work, iPads, internet etc...
Pete_Vancouver Jan 03 2012 at 2:54 PM	Ah yes , nostalgia . I remember that . Its not what it used to be .
mario toni Jan 03 2012 at 2:26 PM	Thanks guys 4 your thoughts! Nissen67, in my case it really is not nostalgia. As I said I was 10 years old when Offramp was out, so it obviously cannot be nostalgia! I started to listen to PM/G around 1988-9, at the Still Life - Letter From Home Era. I tend to agree with Mark X also that Pat maybe needs to take a year off to relax a little! ;)
hman01 Jan 03 2012 at 2:19 PM	Back in the day....
Nissen67 Jan 03 2012 at 11:32 AM	Here is another vote for this being purely about nostalgia. Pat’s music and especially his playing is better than ever and is just as moving if not more. What I notice is that people love the music of their teens and 20’s in a way that nothing else seems to grab them. I think that has been true for generations now.
yossarian Jan 02 2012 at 6:37 PM	Mario, I know what you are saying. Perhaps people produce their most spiritual and elemental music before they fully develop as musicians. There’s a kind of innocence in songs like the fields, the sky, unity village, phase dance etc that can’t be replicated. It applies to so many musicians Once better technique, experience, better understanding of harmony and use of technology kicks in it interferes with the original essence. But then, why is TWU Pat’s greatest recording? Ah... maybe it is just nostalgia. After all in 1978 I reckon most contributors to this forum were still teenagers or early 20s. Overall I think Pat has added a lot of stuff but that original voice is still there, and can’t be lost. Same goes for Lyle - the voice still rings out pure and true.
DSOP Jan 01 2012 at 9:12 PM	I’ve just put together a new quartet that will be playing a mix of original music as well as early PMG music (such as April Joy, The Search, Lone Jack, Travels, James, etc.) My favourite Pat Metheny music is his 70s and early 80s, as well as from 99 to today (especially the Trio stuff). Some is nice, but I can’t listen to Jeff Ballard on drums. Once my band is rehearsed and ready to gig, I’ll post links.
Dazedcat Jan 01 2012 at 1:24 PM	-m: Have a great new year to you too. I’ll keep trying lol.
Pete_Vancouver Dec 31 2011 at 5:21 PM	Hmmm Mark X , I tend to agree with you about the idea of him taking a year off just to write melodic work and to ease up on live performance - I really can’t see him suffering from the ’use it or lose it’ on stage syndrome ! ( and to anyone out there in a position to do anything about it : just get the Orchestrion DVD out there ASAP purleeez ! ) . Sigh !
-m Dec 31 2011 at 1:49 PM	I hear ya Dazedcat, as you know I’m a software geek but I try too. Have a great new years!
Dazedcat Dec 30 2011 at 3:00 PM	-m: I would never consider myself a "musician".....but I do make the effort. Not washed, but maybe a sponge bath? lol
Mark X Dec 30 2011 at 2:34 PM	Hard-core PM fan here, ever since the White Album. I’ve always given Pat a pass on experiments that went a little too far out in left field for my tastes (ZTFS, anyone?) because that’s what true artists do: they experiment. And the best artists find a way to weave those experiments into their core sound in a way that is both logical and organic. I can’t listen to ZTFS, but it paved the way for Scrap Metal and, later, the "Trio Live" version of Question & Answer, which I absolutely love. Now, having said that... I must admit that I haven’t really connected that deeply with anything he’s done since TWU. The various solo, duo, trio and quartet projects since then have focused more on performance than composition. And Pat has become a monster performer, no doubt. But I kinda wish he’d take at least a year off and totally focus on writing. I miss the melodies.
bluepno Dec 30 2011 at 10:17 AM	Yikes, this is turning into a clarion call for the basement...as was said early on....this is the best thread in a while.
thehague Dec 30 2011 at 2:20 AM	Same here, Dazed.
-m Dec 29 2011 at 11:28 PM	Dazedcat: I seem to recall a post by you about struggling through "One For the Boys" on guitar. True? If so, wouldn’t that by definition qualify you to be washed (lol)?
Dazedcat Dec 28 2011 at 8:49 AM	Meldau is brilliant but for some reason unknown to myself his playing has never done very much for me. Then again I’m part of the great unwashed (non-musician)so what do I really know about anything......
akakak Dec 28 2011 at 7:55 AM	I think many are drawn to the older music by Pat because of Nostalgia. When you first hear something that moves you, this sticks with you. If Pat just continued to rest in the same sonic territory he did back in the late 70’s or 80’s, I think the comments would be that Pat hasn’t advanced and the music would sound stale. One of things I really like about artists like Pat they create something that has a unique feel and vibe each time. Offramp if special because there is nothing like it and there never will be. Still Life is unique, Imaginary Day, The Way Up, etc. All these projects have the core sound that Pat created but each is expanded from that core sound into different territory sonically, compositionally, form etc. You can hear things at times in The Way Up that is reminiscent of Offramp or the first PMG record. But as a whole it is very different and new. I still listen to all the older stuff and I am still moved by it in different ways. But I also love the newer music and always look forward to something new and exciting from an artist. Without the "new and different" projects it would all become boring on some level I think.
tiny_tim Dec 28 2011 at 3:57 AM	Bob, thank you so much for the tip of the hat to Barry and Coyote Oldman. Barry was way ahead of the music curve ball back in our junior high, high school days. Glad he was a great friend and fellow band mate to me. Best gig I saw with Barry and a few other mates was B. Bruford, A. Holdsworth, J. Berlin, D. Stewart (no, not Annie’s old collaborator) in Norman, OK, around summer 1978. Sublime and ’mind/ear opening’. Well, we did see Maynard Ferguson with his powerhouse 1976 band, playing in Tulsa. Now that was a hell of a gig, as a trumpeter! Now again I ask, hands up for those who remember Patrick Moraz’s "i" album!!! Best for 2012 Tiny
mario toni Dec 28 2011 at 2:39 AM	Why an idiots like themanwhoknewtoolittle are allowed to this forum is beyond me!
-m Dec 27 2011 at 11:12 PM	Really agree with PeeWee on the "Sueno con Mexico" comment. I would add (in my best argumentative voice) it was the highlight for me.
dgaw59 Dec 27 2011 at 6:47 PM	Nothing "corny" about San Lorenzo. Classic tune-what can one say? In fact this reviewer never thought much of the Metheny/Meldau collaboration. OK 1-2-3: Pounce!
PeeWee Dec 27 2011 at 3:11 PM	One of the highlights from the Orchestrion Tour was hearing Pat play "Sueno con Mexico..."
hman01 Dec 27 2011 at 2:50 PM	Only my opinion counts here.Only my opinion is correct.It(my opinion) is "The Way Up".All others.......well I think I was clear enough to begin with.I will not restate myself.Of course the opinion stated in this post may not be the opinion of the American Garage,but then I digress.(Pretty sad when I have to get a shovel out for my own post.)Cheers y’all!!!
BobSmith Dec 27 2011 at 2:00 PM	tiny_tim--That is very cool! Shows you never know who is connected to who on this board. Coyote Oldman created something really special in many ways. Combining the traditional cedar flute with ambient electronics was brilliant but what they do with them (the compositional structures of their songs) are what makes them really remarkable. Anyone on here should try listening to their CD "House Made of Dawn" sometime, especially when travelling. It’s about as good as it gets.
themanwhoknewtoolittle Dec 27 2011 at 12:50 PM	from mario toni"For me, there is something in the air in those old recordings, some kind of free spirit of melody and emotion that interacts with the listener in the most profound basis. However, some of the new stuff is really great (especially considering the state of music today), but it does not correspond with my soul and harmony values at the same, intimate, etheric way. It is great, but that’s it! It is not Something has changed in the way Pat sees and hears the melody and improvisations. In my case, it looks like it has gone a bit too much on the technical side." this is called bullshitting its as simple as that. egghead
sunship Dec 27 2011 at 12:44 PM	New Chatauqua is one of my favorite works by anyone. I especially like Sueno Con Mexico. Classic Metheny holds a special place in my life. The White Album left a huge impression on me. I cant say The White Album is better than The Way Up, it is just radically different. And I am happy about that. I never want Metheny to stop evolving. To me, Pat Metheny offers so many wonderful flavors, it is like going into an ice cream shop - you just dont get Vanilla every day.
Dazedcat Dec 26 2011 at 7:35 PM	Hey everyone is entitled to their opinion however wrong it might be. Phase Dance must be obsolete too then. I’ll just have a ritual bonfire and melt my old White Album once and for all. Or then again, maybe not.
wanderingjoel Dec 26 2011 at 2:28 PM	Happy Holidaze to all Pat fans! New Chaut. is definitely a goose-bumper, and one that plays in my brain a lot all these years later (i’m one year older than Pat). I get to play it on the radio now and then as a vol. music host at KSER in Everett WA. (kser.org) I think it was the second Pat album I ever bought. I used to listen to it driving the back rds. of the Santa Cruz Mtns. in Cal. where I grew up. (also gazing at Lady Moon on magical nights in the redwood forests) Thank You, Pat, for the soundtrack of my life!
mario toni Dec 26 2011 at 9:45 AM	hman01, that’s absolutely right! that’s why I din’t want to comment on that post from that kid since it is completely absurd! From beginning to the end! Starting with San Lorenzo and ending with that c..p about Windham Hill. I noticed that those Mehldau worshipers are pretty bitter and angry folks for some reason. maybe a warm milk and a diaper (and another Radiohead cover) would calm them down!
mario toni Dec 26 2011 at 5:23 AM	I will not comment on that last post. Enjoy!
tiny_tim Dec 25 2011 at 11:01 PM	BobSmith, yes that is the Barry Stramp from Coyote Oldman. Barry was a tremendously precociously gifted young musician when we were growing up in greater OKC area, and in all kind of bands together in junior high and high school, within the school system circumlum and out of school bands too. He was principally a flute/piccolo player, but he played alto sax, and had some of the first MOOG patchwork synthesizers. Another one we played alot together was Patrick Moraz’s "i" album!!! Raise your hands if you heard that one!
hman01 Dec 25 2011 at 10:34 PM	Newschool-"No one here cares about something as corny as "San Lorenzo"????????? What the....?????????? This was the first track that turned a lot of us on to Pat Metheny in the first place and we don’t care?????????? I don’t like to generalize,I know there’s many of your generation who would be too humble to say such a thing,much less believe it!!!!!! If you deem yourself to be as sophisticated as you think,go back and listen to "San Lorenzo" again and drink in the genius of this composition.The absolutely eloquent and exquisite solo of Lyle Mays,Pat riffing on harmonics?????? Etc. Etc.???? Dude,you can’t be serious-"San Lorenzo"-Corny???? Nobody here would dispute what you have to say regarding the wonderful collaboration of Metheny/Mehldau and the genius that is brought to the table therein,but your characterization of "San Lorenzo"as corny is totally off base.As a music student,you might want to rethink this one!!!
NewSchoolID4 Dec 25 2011 at 4:56 PM	Harmonic solutions? Compare the chordal language of "Ring of Life" with anything of the ECM era. You won’t find it. A lead sheet of that tune was floating around school via a student of Larry Grenadier and shock waves were felt. That gives me my emotion, that kind of composing and playing which is modern and new. No one here cares about something as corny as "San Lorenzo" when Pat has moved on to this. But with a reference to Windham Hill artists I guess that says more than enough to know that we are talking about two different things. (isn’t Windham Hill the label where you had to be white and imitate Keith Jarrett or Pat at their worst?) All is fine, Merry Christmas. Myself, I would suggest Robert Glasper or Jason Moran, or even Craig Taborn (just stay away from the ECM one!)
Jmel58 Dec 25 2011 at 8:32 AM	I first saw PM in ’78 in at the El Mocombo club in Toronto where I was a classical guitar student. I had bought a copy of the white ECM album and had listened to it over and over. Seeing was believing, i stayed for both sets and have been a fan ever since. I have a wonderful memory of an outdoor show at the lakefront in Toronto in ’82. It was beautiful June night, the sound and atmosphere were magic, and Pat and Lyle and Nana Vasconcelos were so inspired. I’ve always loved his work, and although I’ve gone in different directions musically over the years, I still get the goosebumps when I listen to Pat and Lyle and all the other great musicians that he’s been associated with over the years. Hope you’re all having a great holiday!
mario toni Dec 25 2011 at 8:16 AM	The thing is not the nostalgia, it is a emotional response caused by certain harmonic solutions which those old recordings were full of. Merry Christmas! ;)
hman01 Dec 24 2011 at 7:19 PM	Hey,besides the Big Mac thing,I was here in the Florida Tampabay area and went to see the manatees today. They were swimming up close where you could see them.For those who don’t know,manatees are big water mammals also known as sea cows.What started playing in my head? The title track from "Watercolors",another early Pat Metheny masterpiece from 1977."Yeah,that’s that kid from University of Miami.He’s only 19 or somethin’."(OK,23 if you figure the age from his birthday.) Anyway,he was this amazing young player.All I remember was his music took me to another world.It still does.But I know what everybody means about those early recordings.There’s something very special about them.I think the difference for me is that in those early recordings,I would sit down and listen to the whole recording.Most of the music today is just as amazing,but instead,I find myself playing favorite tracks over and over,rather than listening to a whole recording.Like with the Metheny/Mehldau stuff,I’m always playing "Say the Brothers’ Name","Make Peace","A Night Away",anyway that seems to be the way it works for me.But that early stuff,Man what a vibe!!!
hman01 Dec 24 2011 at 12:24 PM	I love Big Macs!
mario toni Dec 24 2011 at 8:59 AM	NewSchoolID4, I think that your objectiveness is a bit strange here. In your 1st post you are saying that you don’t like almost anything PM/G has done in the 70s, 80s and maybe even 90s. Well, me thinks that you are a kind of minority here since your musical objectiveness is actually saying that all of the tunes like "San Lorenzo, Are You Going With Me, First Circle, The Epic, Minuano, Watercolors etc.", the tunes the crowd goes crazy at the concerts and that made Pat so famous, are actually no good! I don’t think that tune like "Scrap Metal" is something most of the hard core PM/G fans are eager to hear at the gigs! Well, is it generation gap? Don’t know, but from my musical & emotional knowledge perspective I strongly feel that the "older" tunes were stronger.
mario toni Dec 24 2011 at 3:08 AM	Tiny Tim, who could forget Windham Hill?! I recently bought Scott Cossu’s album Islands (1984) with Egan & Gottlieb...Ahh what a treat! Anyway, as far as the "old is good and new is not" theories which we are we being accused from a few guys here I don’t think that it works. For example, take the last album from Oregon (2010). It is a NEW music, but still harmonicaly strong lyrical solutions, as always! Two of my favorite musicians before Pat, Lyle Mays & Paul McCandless are still evolving musically but they kept that lyrical note in their music which I am referring to in this post!
NewSchoolID4 Dec 23 2011 at 9:06 PM	What I see here is nostalgia, not objective musical observation. But, I will admit that in 2022, I will probably be among the ones saying that I miss the old Pat back when he used to play with people like McBride and Mehldau when by then he has moved on to interacting with aliens from the planet Exscrat or whatever new frontiers he will HOPEFULLY be exploring then!
BobSmith Dec 23 2011 at 7:18 PM	tiny tim--was your friend Barry Stramp of Coyote Oldman? I have several of their CDs and that name rang a bell.
bucky1960 Dec 23 2011 at 4:29 PM	to "themanwhoknewtoolittle", the egghead name calling was uncalled for. each PM fan may hold dear in their hearts a particular album that takes them back to a particular point in their lives. other albums may not evoke the same feelings when listened to and as a result may not be favored as much. i don’t like ALL PM albums equally or for that matter at all. that is not a bad thing. we listeners must accept the fact that our heros are constantly changing. any worthy musician should be constantly changing for better or worse. no one is more noted for this than Miles Davis. he got creamed when the Bitches Brew album came out or his electric phase began. can’t remember which. the jazz purists complained profusely. he really didn’t care. any way, keep listening to PM, pick and choose the albums you like and discard the rest. it’s up to you on what music you spend your money on, what turns you on, and what flows into your ears (as long as it’s not too loud). i don’t think PM would mind, just be tolerant and watch the name calling. does knowing too little have anything to do with microcephaly? NO I’M JUST TEASING!!!!!!!!
themanwhoknewtoolittle Dec 23 2011 at 12:56 PM	mario toni and others if u want the same big mac go to mcdonalds, its easy to embrace the past. egghead
mario toni Dec 23 2011 at 11:39 AM	Thanks Bob! Totally agree with you! Nothing else to say!
-m Dec 23 2011 at 9:47 AM	New Chautauqua was my introduction to PM. Even after over 30 years and untold listenings it remains my very favorite.
tiny_tim Dec 23 2011 at 8:07 AM	I find this one of the more interesting threads, ’ever’, on this forum. What BobSmith (in his original thread, if he adds more comments later) said I could not put any better or more eloquently, or emotionally. I knew when and where and with who and in what circumstances I heard ’Phase Dance’. I can still see my high school band friend’s (Barry Stramp, still a muso with pan flutes) room and that Pioneer turntable and Barry showing this White Album with four young men in the winter with their 70’s style jackets on with wonderful honest facial expressions (the real glow), somewhere in front of a Scandanavian brick building. That needle dropped ever so slowly, I felt I was in for something as Barry knew his music, and within 10 seconds of that needle hitting the vinyl I knew my world was going to change. Whether its been those groundbreaking ECM days (lets not forget Windham Hill Records, too!), Geffen, NonSuch, its been the best ride of this thing I call life. And meeting the ’tribe’ who are part of this extraordinary voyage within the Pat Metheny cosmos. Its all great to me.
bluepno Dec 23 2011 at 7:40 AM	The age of discovery is always an exciting time. So many fusion albums of those days were powerhouses. Many tries,tons of misses and then...the perfect fusion of jazz,folk,bluegrass,country,popular music comes together. The simplicity of the format, and I agree, Mafred Eicher’s light touch makes an almost perfect listening experience with an emotional depth rarely achieved in today’s digital age of layers upon layers.Dang,it sounds like the person playing is having fun playing these little miniature gems. I always was impressed by the well worn guitars held together with bubble gum, wires and duct tape.That’s what happens when you are on the road 300 days a year.
mario toni Dec 23 2011 at 1:23 AM	thehague, that’s exactly what I’m talking about! great music, great harmonies, great improvs and great images. @NewSchoolID4 i was 10 when Offramp came out, so i still don’t consider myself an old geezer. funny you mentioned Mehldau; i have both albums Pat did with him and all i completely like from them is "Towards theLight", which is a masterpiece (except that weird part in the middle of the tune).
BobSmith Dec 22 2011 at 10:42 PM	mario-Very interesting thoughts and I love New Chautauqua too. I think in the simplest terms, that I have such a long history of listening to N.C. and can even remember the experience of buying it over 30 years ago. It’s completely infused into my remembering complex, as it were, through all the life experiences that were going on at the time that I bought it and on and on. In other words, I have such a deep connection to this one and Pat’s other older stuff that it transcends mere music. It’s literally part of my brain matter and I can almost play many of the songs, especially from the white album, like a tape recorder, in my head, from start to finish. In fact, if I ever met Pat face to face, I would want to, more than anything, tell him about this sort of thing, how much of a positive impact his music has had on my life. I think great musicians like Pat, who is an always forward-moving kind of musical force, no flies on him, etc., may underestimate how much of an effect they’ve had on people and how their older stuff, however distant in the past it is to them on a musical level, still has deep meaning to his fans. I don’t know, he probably gets that on some level anyway. But I know what you mean about the earlier stuff--I think Pat was discovering that musical soul deep inside and it was a beautiful thing and its power still resonates strongly today. I’ll throw in a kudos for Manfred Eicher too--he had a way of producing those earlier albums with such a nice, light touch. It’s like he knew what Pat wanted and he helped him get it and they got it in spades. I think there’s nothing like spending the majority of your life with this great music as a constant companion. And even if you don’t listen to it for months or years, when you do listen again, at just the right moment, it creates an indescribable feeling that’s truly one of life’s great joys.
thehague Dec 22 2011 at 4:41 PM	That particular period in time holds the very best of PM’s music for me too. Totally agree on the feelings and images the music of that period invokes. Much as good as the nowadays music is, it never invokes those feelings and images.
NewSchoolID4 Dec 22 2011 at 3:18 PM	For me it is just the opposite. Although my parents used to play Pat’s music on trips I didn’t really "get it" until seeing the Metheny/Mehldau tour a few years ago. It is hard for me to imagine that Pat would ever go back to the bland "PMG" sound after that and Day Trip and especially Orchestrion. When I hear the old ECM stuff it does nothing to me, I don’t remember anything about it except the often cheezy synth sounds and weaker than today playing. It is hard for me to imagine Metheny going back after playing with Mehldau. Could anyone doubt that the level of that quartet dwarves his original band in any way? And the new record, although referencing songs that were years before I was born sounds fresh to me in ways that New Chautauqua just doesn’t. Day Trip is exciting to me in ways that Rejoicing just isn’t. The one exception in all of this for me is Bright Size Life. But if there were never another PMG record it would be fine with me. Keep experimenting, Pat, don’t let the old geezers take you back!
mario toni Dec 22 2011 at 2:43 PM	Well, Secret Story or TWU or PMG’s Quartet albums are all a great recordings and there are a lot of etheric moments like the ones I talked about in the 70-80s era. Especially on Quartet. Stuff like Oceania, Seven Days, Badland or See the World (from S.S.). But it seems to me Pat slowly drifts away from that kind of harmonic visualizations. On the other hand Lyle with his newer involvements at Caltech or Spectrasonics "experiment", seems to still float in his eternal harmony colors! Well, the last PMG album was on that trail, so maybe the new one (when it comes out) will be something special! ;)
rbslscpa Dec 22 2011 at 4:54 AM	Still thinking about what you wrote, and i tend to agree with you. However some of the new stuff affects me the same way. not sure if SS is new enough but for me it is Pat’s most emotionally powerful album. In addition Missouri Sky and The Way Up also totally engage my senses with or without a road trip in tandem. Thanks for the post. Reg
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